Aug25 Founded On Christianity My Ass
Category: Ramblings
 

I hate how the religious always try to say the United States is and always has been a Christian nation founded solely on Christian values. That is just not true. Even Barack Obama will tell you we aren’t a Christian nation.

“Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.”

My main point is what the United States was founded on though. If it really and truly was, don’t you think words like “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God” would be in the Constitution. The thing is, they aren’t mentioned a SINGLE time. If we were founded on such principles, why do we have the First Amendment to protect us from church and state? I’ll admit it doesn’t expressly state “Separation of Church and State” but that’s what it is trying to say.

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Then of course Thomas Jefferson mentions its separation of Church and State.

Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.

One more giant blow to the whole theory would be the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli. Before anybody goes off telling me its a bullshit article, here is where it is located in the Library of Congress. The statement is located right in Article 11:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

I really am having trouble interpreting that in any other way than what it says. Maybe a fundie can help me here? Of course our laws aren’t based on the 10 Commandments either. I’ll admit a few are used today, doesn’t mean they had to come from the Bible. Most people admit murde, stealing and bearing false witness are bad. Even I agree and I’m an atheist! The first amendment takes away quite a few of them as well. I can say JESUS CHRIST in vain if I want, I can do whatever the fuck I want on Sunday except eat at Chic-Fil-A. I can have whatever God I want, not required to be Yahweh. Really our laws aren’t based on Christianity. Of course its not surprising considering practically all the founding fathers were deists and NOT Christians. If they wanted to make this a nation based on the Bible, they could have easily done so. They didn’t. There are almost as many contradictions to the claim we are based on Christianity as there are within the Bible itself.

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  • anti_supernaturalist
    The US is a Secular State -- not a xian entity of any kind

    Fundies are fond of using 'xian country' or 'xian nation' since 'country' and 'nation' are weasel words. Their ambiguity in meaning allows fundies to use fallacious reasoning (ambiguity) to make lying claims.

    The United State of America is a Secular State. Let's say it again: the US is a secular state. It was founded as a secular state. Despite lies to the contrary, the US remains a secular state.

    • Search on the text of the US Constitution. You will find that the word 'God' does not occur. The word 'religion' occurs only once in the so-called Establishment Clause, in Amendment I. The Constitution also specifies that “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” Art VI Sec 3

    Freedom of conscience is a right protected first by the Constitution, before freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedoms of the press, assembly, and petition.

    James Madison, primary author of the Constitution, explained the two religion clauses to Congress ". . . Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience." (1 Annals of Congress 730. August 15, 1789)

    Well into the 19th century, the code words for the right not to believe were 'freedom of conscience'. No politician could advocate atheism openly -- not much has changed in 221 years.

    • Fundies and other religious zealots look rather to the Declaration of Independence to claim that God (really some Deistic proxy) is the source of "inalienable rights". The Declaration did not establish the United States of America -- the Constitution did, as its Preamble states.

    "Inalienable Rights" arise because free agents cede them to each other within a structured polity governed by rules (The Constitution) which maximize individual freedom, subject to defined restraints.

    “God,” as Laplace said to Napoleon, is "an unnecessary hypothesis" in cosmology. The US Constitution avers the same -- God is an unnecessary hypothesis to the foundation of a well-functioning, secular polity.

    • The Constitution makes freedom of conscience a necessary condition for unfeigned religious belief to be possible. Without the free choice not to believe, xians could impose their faith-based theocratic pretensions on all rights enumerated in Amendment I.

    Millions of Americans, including Supreme Court Justices, cannot accept how radically free we are. They will not accept anyone's right to be free from religion. They cannot grasp what 'freedom of conscience' means.

    the anti_supernaturalist
  • godlessblogger
    Bravo. That was quite a good response.
  • I so agree with the title of this! that sums the whole of it!!lol!
  • Jacob McD
    Remember that the US Constitution also says that treaties entered into by the United States are Law. Therefore, the Treaty of Tripoli is the actual law, so therefore when these zealots claim the US is founded on Christianity, or that we are a Christian nation, what they're saying is actually illegal!
  • godlessblogger
    That's an excellent point. I never thought about that. I'll be sure to
    remember that in future debates.
  • LostBoyPA
    This whole argument needs to just die already. The examples you cite here are only the tip of the iceberg. I find it funny that this country was basically founded in order to ESCAPE the Anglican Church, and to offer FREEDOM OF RELIGION to anyone who wanted it: All they had to do is show up!

    We are, at both best and worst, a religiously-mixed nation, and most certainly NOT a nation based on any one brand of Magic Sky Pixie worship.

    Kudos on this post. The world needs more like them.
  • hehehe....if you fight a straw man, the straw man will likely lose every time.

    I am one of those dreadful, rightwing, fundie, wacko people who believe the Bible. However, I would NEVER try to argue that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. I would argue that it was based on a Judeo-Christian ethic. There is a big gap between those two statements. I know some would argue that it was NOT based on the Judeo-Christian ethic. ("Revisionist History" blah blah blah) Look at the background of the authors of the documents. If they were Sumerian, you might have an argument for that point. They weren't. 'nuff said.

    I found it humorous that you said, "Even Barack Obama will tell you..." Barack Obama is no friend of evangelical Christianity. He is a pluralist at best. He is likely to be whatever you want him to be at the given moment to gain what he is trying to accomplish. Not a very credible source...

    ...and quoting the fact that the Library of Congress has a copy of a work, in order to prove that a document is a credible source? I bet they have a copy or two of the Bible in the LOC as well. Does that make the Bible authoritative for you? I doubt it. :-)

    The U.S. was founded on moral principles that emanate from the Judeo-Christian ethic. (NOTE: I didn't say those priciples emanate SOLELY from the Judeo-Christian heritage..) We were also founded on the assumption of religious liberty. For that reason, there was no "establishment of religion" in our founding documents, and that is why we were protected from the "establishment of religion". The founding fathers did not want the country to be ruled by any single religion and protected us against such establishment. The degree to which people wave the "separation of church and state" banner today was neither intended, nor is it healthy for us today in many instances.

    I celebrate your right to worship (or not) as you choose. My freedom is based on that same right. I will not attack your right. I hope you won't attack my right (no matter how ill-advised you think it may be...) either.

    Just don't spend too much energy celebrating your victories over a "straw man".
  • godlessblogger
    How does the background of the writers of the Constitution make it Judeo-Christian? They were deists. And I argue that all morality would be based on something as early as Hammurabi's Code. I also made no point in saying that Barack Obama is a friend of evangelical Christianity. I was just saying that even our president agrees we aren't a Christian Nation. I have been argued against before that the treaty of tripoli never existed, I just wanted to show some evidence that it did.
    Moral principles that emanate from Judeo-Christian ethics? I don't need any religious ethics to know murder is wrong, that's more natural law. Obviously I agree with religious liberty. What do you mean the degree of separation of church and state is wrong and unhealthy?
    I'm glad you agree with my right to not worship Yahweh. Of course, I will attack your ideas though. Religion doesn't deserve any special treatment whatsoever, it needs to be publicly criticized just as someone who denies the existence of the Holocaust is criticized for spreading bullshit. Although I do agree the entire religion of Christianity(Or any religion for that matter) is made of straw, the arguments are simply flimsy.
  • The glaring absence of religious language from the Constitution should be more than enough to show that our country is not founded on religious principles; a point made further apparent by eschewing religiosity as a legal precept directly in the very first modification (the 1st Amendment.) Seems like the 1st Amendment provides a clarification as to why religious language is excluded so blatantly from the foundational groundwork of the United States.

    The “founded on Christian principles” canard is revisionist history propaganda at its best; a sound-bite that rings in the ears of Christians of every stripe who would like it to be true, but don’t see any reason to examine the principals enshrined in our founding framework.

    Claims will be made, of course, using the Declaration of Independence; it does include religious language, but it’s not in any way part of the legal framework of the United States. In fact, the Declaration is arguably not even a document written by the United States as a country since the US didn’t exist yet when it was written.

    Claims about outlawing murder, theft, perjury, fraud, etc. smack of the usurpation of morality by religions—and become especially flimsy when it’s regarded that these social mores demonstrably existed in human societies long before Christianity or even Judaism came onto the scene. Social communities that do not follow these mores do not last long, and if “Juedo-Christian” values did not reflect them, they would have imploded long before they ever gained any prominence.
  • CRVW1607
    "I can do whatever the fuck I want on Sunday except eat at Chic-Fil-A."

    That line cracked me up. :)

    And I completely agree. Here's another blog post on the subject: http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/08/24/our-god...
  • godlessblogger
    Wow that's ironic they just did a post on this subject. Glad I made somebody laugh, happens on occasion.
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